Black cloud or hevi-metal?

[max1982]

Hevi-metal it is about all I shoot.

Shawn, I have a question why doesn't hevi-metal make #1 shot? If they did it would be all

[SPatrick]

I truthfully dont have an answer for you there. I have had a few guys ask me that same question actually. I would guess that it is not as popular of a shot size, but dont really know for sure.

[SPatrick]

I am going to get the blind side.

Why?
Not being a jerk or anything just truly want to know.

[BenelliSBE2]

I am going to get the blind side.

Why?
Not being a jerk or anything just truly want to know.

I was wondering the same thing, my buddies shot blindsides all season and let me tell you I'm not impressed especially for how expensive it is.

[DSM16428]

I was just at my local Dick's and the blindside is still more expensive than HM! In fact the only load they carry that costs more is 3 1/2" BC. That stuff is still at 28 bucks a box!

[2500hdon37s]

Hevi-metal..... all I shoot now, can be had for $17 a box if you buy a case and get the rebate.

like said its a mix of steel and hevi-shot so, you are getting much better performance than you would over the all steel load of black cloud. not to mention 1/2 of black cloud is still regular round steel shot, and the other 1/2 is the flite stopper gimmick.

this year, my most memorable shot is on a mallard while using #2 Hevi-metal. my buddy had shot 3 times at it and barely winged it. it was still flying away and at 60 yards and 1 shot I dumped it stone cold dead.

[tornadochaser]

like said its a mix of steel and hevi-shot so, you are getting much better performance than you would over the all steel load of black cloud. not to mention 1/2 of black cloud is still regular round steel shot, and the other 1/2 is the flite stopper gimmick.

And by performance you mean better pattern density right? Because (correct me if I am wrong) at just under 10g/cc for the smaller tungsten pellets in the hevimetal load, the individual energy retention per small tungsten pellet is only slightly better than the larger steel pellet.

[SpeckSlayer]

I shot a case of HM last season. I liked. I bought a case of blindside this year and mmmeehhhh. Can't really say I prefer one or the other. Both are killing ducks and geese if they get close enough. I've dropped several specks this year with #2's. $has a huge factor in it for me. I've killed birds with all kinds. Last year I dropped 7 spoonies with 3 HM shoots.

[SPatrick]

And by performance you mean better pattern density right? Because (correct me if I am wrong) at just under 10g/cc for the smaller tungsten pellets in the hevimetal load, the individual energy retention per small tungsten pellet is only slightly better than the larger steel pellet.

Pattern density yes, and also density in general, The hevi metal pellets are 10 G/CC, lead is right around 11 G/CC Hevi shot is 12 while steel is dragging the back end at like 7.5. I would say that is quite an improvement actually. Also smaller pellets that are a ballistic twin of their larger steel counterparts I will take all day. That equals more pellets per shell with great knock down power. HM are not better than lead like Hevi Shot, but I would say its closer to lead lol.

[tornadochaser]

And by performance you mean better pattern density right? Because (correct me if I am wrong) at just under 10g/cc for the smaller tungsten pellets in the hevimetal load, the individual energy retention per small tungsten pellet is only slightly better than the larger steel pellet.

Pattern density yes, and also density in general, The hevi metal pellets are 10 G/CC, lead is right around 11 G/CC Hevi shot is 12 while steel is dragging the back end at like 7.5. I would say that is quite an improvement actually. Also smaller pellets that are a ballistic twin of their larger steel counterparts I will take all day. That equals more pellets per shell with great knock down power. HM are not better than lead like Hevi Shot, but I would say its closer to lead lol.

How is it closer to lead if the tungsten pellets are sized to perform similar than the larger steel pellets in the load? This is why I don't like gimmick loads like this. There is too many "facts" that get thrown around and some people don't know what they are actually spending their money on. I like the concept of heavy metal. I have no doubt it outperforms certain steel loads, but in reality, it only hits birds "harder" than regular steel loads if you're getting better patterns on the bird. Just based on payload alone, pattern density shouldn't be an issue, but these loads aren't automatically going to perform any better than quality "regular" steel in every gun/choke. Its not about how many pellets you start with, its about how many end up in the vitals down range.

[SPatrick]

It has nothing to do with the size of the pellet, it has to do with the density of the pellet, and thus the energy that is transfered into the target. And IMO HM is by no means a "gimmick" load. It also outperforms any steel on the market in terms of patterns, out of my gun, I guess I should say. Its the same thing as calls, I may be able to blow the dog crap out of Daisy cutter, but cant get an echo timber to sound any better than cazoo, while you may be just the opposite. This is why patterning is key, as well as finding a suitable choke. Pattern density on the target plays a huge factor, but also energy transfer which will translate into penetration plays a role too. Both of these things coupled is what gives cleaner kills, which is what I find to be the best part of HM. I would say that the increase in killing power at fringe ranges is increased with HM, but nothing like true hevi shot. Its all about the clean kill which is what most people forget about. I truly shoot less shells in a season shooting HM because of less shots on cripples that you would be taking with a normal steel load, to the point where it is very noticeable and actually makes it about the same price as buying regular steel in terms of shells shot.

[tornadochaser]

It has nothing to do with the size of the pellet, it has to do with the density of the pellet, and thus the energy that is transfered into the target.

Pattern density on the target plays a huge factor, but also energy transfer which will translate into penetration plays a role too. Both of these things coupled is what gives cleaner kills, which is what I find to be the best part of HM. I would say that the increase in killing power at fringe ranges is increased with HM...

From Environmetal's own website: "HEVI-Metal™ shells use a layer of large steel balls beneath a layer of lethal high-density balls. All of the pellets have the approximately the same ballistic performance and lethality".

"HEVI-Steel® is designed to give a hunter more lethal range than he can get from regular steel shotshells, using higher density shot. HEVI-Metal™ is designed to give a hunter more lethal pellets on target than he can get from regular steel shotshells, using smaller high density shot. The two shells are designed to do different things. HEVI-Metal™ is more lethal at normal shooting ranges (out to 40 yards for ducks)."

There is no intended increase in killing power at fringe ranges with these loads. Any increase in "power", has a more direct correlation with pattern density than with the pellets. According to KPY ballistics software, a #4 10g/cc tungsten and a #1 7.8 g/cc steel both started at 1500 fps will both hit 650 fps within 2 yards of each other. So, according to the computers, the tungsten pellets in HM would have to be #4 or larger in a load of "#2 HM" to have an advantage over the steel 2's in that load. Everything that I've seen regarding the shot size of the tungsten in the HM loads is that many of the pellets are 3 sizes smaller, which would give near equal ballistics, which is what the intent of the load was. I will be patterning some of these loads next time I'm up at my farm; I don't intend on using them hunting, because I can get true 12 g/cc 1 1/4 oz tungsten loads for $11 per 10 rounds right now. If I want to sling cash at birds, I'll be shooting that!

[loufaulkner]

Wow, where can you get 12gcc tungsten loads for $11 for 10, or are you handloading them yourself? That's a darn good deal. I'll have to agree with the HM choice over the BC. I shot BC when it first came out and couldn't get it to pattern for anything. Of course, I didn't go out and buy a "gimmick" choke either. The HM patterned great out of my factory Beretta chokes so I use it. Then I got some HM choke tubes and compared my loads for ducks and geese out of them, and I got great results, a little better than my factory chokes. I also get fewer cripples at "guessing" ranges with HM than I did with BC. That's just my results though, because I patterned out of my hunting gun. I reckon that's the biggest key, regardless of shot size, density, etc. If your gun doesn't pattern well with your choke/ammo combo, why bother?

[tornadochaser]

Wow, where can you get 12gcc tungsten loads for $11 for 10, or are you handloading them yourself? That's a darn good deal. I'll have to agree with the HM choice over the BC. I shot BC when it first came out and couldn't get it to pattern for anything. Of course, I didn't go out and buy a "gimmick" choke either. The HM patterned great out of my factory Beretta chokes so I use it. Then I got some HM choke tubes and compared my loads for ducks and geese out of them, and I got great results, a little better than my factory chokes. I also get fewer cripples at "guessing" ranges with HM than I did with BC. That's just my results though, because I patterned out of my hunting gun. I reckon that's the biggest key, regardless of shot size, density, etc. If your gun doesn't pattern well with your choke/ammo combo, why bother?

Local ammo retailer here in SD had 2 3/4" winchester Xtended for $11 a box. Now Dunn's has 2 3/4" xtended for $144 a case shipped, plus the Winchester rebate going on right now brings the price down to $100 for $100 rounds.

[fisherhunter460]

I've been shooting both as of late. I started the season shooting heavy metal BBs from my 12 gauge 870. Love it! Kills geese. Then my brother had to say that a 20 gauge won't kill geese. So I had to prove him wrong. Last three hunts were with my 20 gauge shooting #2 Black Cloud and have hammered them, shot one on Saturday that blew half the head off at 30 yards. All about shot placement.

My only issue with Black Cloud is the powder blow back I get on occasion. And fear of the problems they have had with the snow goose loads.

[MNhunter3781]

I wonted to try a high power load. BC and hevi-metal are the best out there.

I would not say that. My gun will never see a black cloud. Every gunsmith you talk to will steer you away from them. And the old sight administrator wackem' stackem' lost like 15% hearing in his right ear because one blew up in his gun. Blew his gun to pieces too.

[MNhunter3781]

close-call-today-13604.html

Here is the thread with the pix from it.

[DSM16428]

I wonted to try a high power load. BC and hevi-metal are the best out there.

I would not say that. My gun will never see a black cloud. Every gunsmith you talk to will steer you away from them. And the old sight administrator wackem' stackem' lost like 15% hearing in his right ear because one blew up in his gun. Blew his gun to pieces too.

WRONG!! I am calling a loud BS on this one! You show me a gunsmith that will or will not recommend a particular ammo and I'll show you a gunsmith that doesn't know boo about his craft. What happened to wackem could have happended to ANYONE with ANY ammo and ANY gun. Further the round in question wasn't even the ammo being discussed here. It was the ultra high velocity "snow goose" load. Not sure where you got your "info" from but other than the issues with the snow goose loads, there has not been one single solitary, DOCUMENTED AND PROVEN case where BC had anything to do with a firearm failure. Please. I challenge, no...I dare you to prove me wrong here. I sold guns and ammunition for almost 10 years. I've used BC since it came out and would use it exclusively if it wasn't so overpriced as most Federal, especially steel, unfortunately is. I understand that what happens in the chamber is unfortunately the "intangible" factor when you pull the trigger. You can't clean and maintain ammunition, you can't see what's inside the round you feed your shotgun, but BC's performance and quality has been proven. To allow your dislike of a particular ammo or brand of ammo just because it might not perform for you in your gun or you heard from a guy who knows a guy that heard of something on the internet and so forth is rediculous. I have shot hundreds of rounds of BC, I know many...many guys that have shot hundreds upon hundreds of rounds of BC. To pigeon hole the ammo because of one man's mishap...makes no sense. That's like saying EVERY OTHER brand of ammo ever produced has been PERFECT and never caused an injury. I am living proof that that is not so and carry the scars to prove it. Seriously?! I have shot litterally every single brand of factory steel waterfowl ammo produced in the us since 1992. Gotten some VERY POOR performers sure, but in those 29 years of hunting and almost a decade of selling, I have never once heard of a single documented case where BC caused a guys gun to explode. Now the new snow goose loads...diferent story. I have seen where a few loads were possibly "double throws" or who knows what and caused a catastrophic detonation. From what I understand, Federal recalled those lots of ammo too.

[MNhunter3781]

the gunsmith of over 30 years that i always go to had 6 shotguns the last time i went in there (it was almost a year ago) where the flight control wad had gotten stuck in the end of the barrels and blew the end of the gun up. he cut open multiple shells and every one he cut open he could not pull through a IC choke. so after seeing 6 blown up barrels and watching him try and pull 4 diffrent wads from shells of diffrent boxes through an IC choke and not being able to even come close to getting it to go through is enough for me not to put them in a $1500 gun.

[DSM16428]

the gunsmith of over 30 years that i always go to had 6 shotguns the last time i went in there (it was almost a year ago) where the flight control wad had gotten stuck in the end of the barrels and blew the end of the gun up. he cut open multiple shells and every one he cut open he could not pull through a IC choke. so after seeing 6 blown up barrels and watching him try and pull 4 diffrent wads from shells of diffrent boxes through an IC choke and not being able to even come close to getting it to go through is enough for me not to put them in a $1500 gun.

I understand your apprehension completely! The thing is, just because a person can't pull the wad through the muzzle, doesn't mean the thousands upon thousands of pounds of pressure per square inch behind that wad can't. The FC wads are very stiff by design to protect your barrel during firing and I can completely see where you couldn't pull one through the bore by hand. Again, I have not found a single documented case of where a FC wad or shell (other than the snow goose loads that were recalled) caused a barrel rupture or catastrophic failure in the chamber and believe me I have looked.